Hope and Resilience Across Borders: Feat. Bishop Iyad Twal

In this episode of Jerusalem Talks, Avraham (Avrum) Burg sits down with Reverend Fr. Iyad Twal*, the executive vice president at Bethlehem University and a professor of theology. Together, they look at Fr. Twal’s Jordanian roots, his deep connection to the Holy Land, and his mission of keeping hope alive. Their conversation explores topics such as the challenges facing Christian communities in the Middle East, the role of education in fostering interfaith dialogue, and the importance of preserving cultural and religious identity. They also talk about the value of experiencing the Holy Land firsthand in order to understand the “geography of salvation”. They conclude by discussing the role of major themes, such as justice, reconciliation, resilience, and hope, within the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

*On December 17, 2024, Fr. Iyad was appointed Auxiliary Bishop to Jordan.

With gratitude to the production team - Daniel Schwake, Gabriel Mitchell, and Avrum Burg - as well as Eli Krogmann and David Turjman for making this season of Jerusalem Talks possible.

Transcript

Jerusalem Talks ND

Season 2 Episode 7

Host: Avraham Burg
Featured Guest: Reverend Fr. Iyad Twal

Avraham Burg: Peace on you, Father Iyad.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Good morning and to you too, with your spirit.

Avraham Burg: Father Iyad Twal, born in Jordan.

Avraham Burg: Serves in Bethlehem, teaches in Bethlehem and actually all over Palestine, Israel or what we call the Terra Santa.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: You have one privilege that the person like me did not have. You can travel all across the biblical and New Testament, geography, territory, etcetera, and visit all of these places, right? All the rest of us are limited to our national borders restrictions. How does that feel to travel the Terra Santa?

Fr. Iyad Twal: It feels at home, even with all the difficulties on sometimes on the roads or the checkpoints. But yes, it is a blessing to have it as possibility, not only to visit, to live it, to know it. I feel very blessed that I can and I know people from up Galilee up to the South, from or in different cities, different denominations, religious communities, cities, people. It is a blessing, yes

Avraham Burg:  You are a theologian, philosopher, educator, but I will say, reading through your activities and writings and teaching, you are super you're super spreader of hope.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, I am.

Avraham Burg: I mean, with all the difficulties of the region and the shooting and the crossfires, you never lose hope.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: How comes?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Because my hope is based on faith and based on the on believing God's promise is always there. And I do believe that people can change and would change, maybe if not in my time, in the time after. But we always we want things to be better on all the levels. But also it's not a sentimental hope. It is something because the change is not hoping for change, it's doing, preparing, working. So I do believe that the change only to say I believe that hope is doing your job, your mission, your service. So I believe that one day the results of our work today will be accomplished

Avraham Burg: So when you come home and your mom ask you, yeah, what are you doing for living, you say I'm at the industry of hope.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly. I am changing, changing the realities that we are doing now or what we are facing now. I'm changing the realities through education, through the people we meet, through the activities we do, through the prayers we pray. On all the levels.

Avraham Burg: So we got, we got your spirit. Let's start building the Father Iyad, what we call in the region Abuna.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: OK Abuna's structure, Abuna's home.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg:  Ok? You were born in Jordan.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: You still know it the way it is today.

Fr. Iyad Twal: How Jordan you mean?

Avraham Burg: Yeah, I mean Jordan of when you were born.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: It was a different Jordan.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Oh, yes.

Avraham Burg:  I mean with the Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees and millions of Syrian refugees. It's a different place.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, it is.

Avraham Burg: So tell us a little bit about the Christian community in Jordan.

Fr. Iyad Twal: As you know, Jordan is part of the Holy Land. Let's say it's the east side of the river.  So why I came to the seminary after I finished my high school in Jordan, I felt the need to discern my vocation and to see God's call in my life. So I came to the other side of the river, which is the West Bank, where in the seminary we study and prepare ourselves for the priesthood. Jordan is becoming very, let us say, where we have strong Christian community living in Jordan. It's the political and social situation in Jordan is totally different and by time it's becoming kind of different reality. We have different realities in the Holy Land. It's a stable country and the Christian community is very active, well involved in building the country and it's very rich reality because also our brothers and sisters came to live in Jordan with the Iraqis, with the Syrians and also Lebanese. So it is not very limited or close to only the Jordanians, to the Christian Jordanians, the percentage we are talking about 3 - 4%.

Avraham Burg: I think I'm not sure correctly if I'm wrong that some 50 more than 50-70 years ago or the 50s, Christians were some 30% of the Jordan political realm and today it's around 5-6 percent of the population. So part of it is immigration and demography, but part of it is many Jordanians are leaving towards the West. I mean, some of my, , some very good friends of mine are Jordanians immigrants.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, Christian immigrants, yes, yes, Christian immigration from all the Middle East countries, it's dangerous and negative phenomena that we face.

Avraham Burg: Dangers in what sense?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Dangers that we are losing our presence and we are becoming less and less or or smaller.

Avraham Burg: Extinct 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, exactly. Look into Lebanon, look into Syria, look in Iraq, in Egypt. Yes, we are facing this critical phenomena. And yeah, Jordan is part of the instability of the region in the Middle East, even though they are much more better than other countries. But yet, yes, sometimes for Jordanians, Christians is not also..

Avraham Burg: Where is the safest place for a Christian to be today in the Middle East?

Fr. Iyad Twal:  Well, I don't see it in this way. It's not just because you are a Christian. Yes, there are some factors as threatening Christians what happened with ISIS or ISIS in Iraq or the civil war in lebanon. 

Avraham Burg: ISIS is Iraq, Syria, Islamic state, 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes

Avraham Burg: The Khalifa

Fr. Iyad Twal: That yes, that they persecuted directly Christians because they are Christians. But for example and in Lebanon too. But I see the issue is not religious than I see it a political and stability that the arabic societies in the Middle East are still struggling to find a final formula, either politically or socially or economically, how to build their countries, and of course, as everywhere even in Europe during the period of time where they were like trying to build after the Renaissance or before the French Revolution, religion factor was there present, the civil war in the United States in the past, Catholics and Protestants, I mean the religion is always a factor. When there is a division, when there is instability in the society, they use it in somehow. But still I yet I still believe that one day the concept of citizenship in the Arabic countries is growing, is developing and becoming clearer that everyone, regardless of the differences, religious differences or social or political differences, they can come to coexist and live together to build their country. Because I see them, for example, a Jordanian immigrant in the US, they love Jordan. They keep their culture, they keep their language, traditions, customs, food, clothes. They keep their identity and being Christian Catholic, but yet they love Jordan. Which means you it shows how much they care about their identity, their nationality and they wish we have like the other countries.

Avraham Burg: Borrowing from a quotation of yours, you said once when I discovered that there are Palestinians, not Christians, but when there are Palestinians who have immigrated and have not even taught their children Arabic, I'm ashamed of for them 

Fr. Iyad Twal: That they don't speak Arabic you mean?

Avraham Burg: What troubles you? I mean, my daughter lives in New York. Far away, difficult for keeping, maintaining the relationship. But it's OK. Everybody moves in this world nowadays.

Fr. Iyad Twal: What troubles me that they forget their identity. I do believe that faith, religion is part of your culture and it is not easy for any person to cut off a part of your identity and replacing it with different thing, with different factor, with different element. Look around you also how people are always connected to their culture, to their land, even after hundreds of years, even after thousands of years. So yes, it worries me when I see the 3rd or 4th generation of Palestinian Christians immigrants in the US and that they don't not speak Arabic and that they feel, which is fine for me, that they feel whatever, whatever they are in that country, Peru, Chile, Canada. But why not to continue speaking arabic because the language is your mind, your culture, your history.

Avraham Burg: Let's remain with history for a second. You travel or you commute. You traveled from home in Jordan, in Madaba. The historic city mosaic, city mosaic map, Byzantine, the glorious Byzantine presence to the other side of the Jordan. In Jordan of today, which is the eastern part of the holy river, there are very few Christian holy sites, unlike the western side of the Jordan, the West Bank of the Jordan. How do you in a place like Jordan maintain the quality of religious tension, tension not in the negative sense, but in the exciting sense with so few religious sites?

Fr. Iyad Twal: The Jordanian people, by nature, I think they are very religious, very sentimental, very emotional, and they are connected deeply to their land and to their faith. The fact that we have several religious sites, either Muslims or Christians,

Avraham Burg: Bethany

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, and the baptism sites, Mount Nebo, 

Avraham Burg: The other side of the Qasr Al Yahood.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, yes, yes, there are many, many sites. The good thing that it shows everyone has a history that you cannot exclude the other one. So Jordanian Christians. Love Jordan and they feel connected to the land and that you cannot tell me, for example, that I am a recent habitant in this land. Also the archaeology sites show that..

Avraham Burg:  I was there before.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Oh yes, somehow I was before.

Avraham Burg: There is always a competition in our region.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly who is, who is before. Yeah, but not from let us say timing or outline, but it's question that yes, we are there and we were there and

Avraham Burg: With very deep roots, 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly with deep roots, yes, yes 

Avraham Burg: I'd like to move a little bit on. You invest a lot in your education, the way you educate and in your activities in the Christian-Muslim dialogue.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, 

Avraham Burg: Talk.

Avraham Burg: So talk to me about the dialogue you generate.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, the dialogue we do, I can say have two levels. The first level through the institutions or through the work we do in, for example, in Bethlehem University.  As university, it serves everyone in Bethlehem area and Jerusalem. So the dialogue is through the witness we give, the way we work, the values we share and teach with our daily work. And I got a very, always very interesting feedback from people because they see us as a Catholic university in the Holy Land that, for example, they say we see you very professional in your way of work. We trust you because we know that you do it well. You protect our children. They come to the university feeling safe. It's an oasis or a beacon of peace and safety. They know that we protect everyone regardless of their religious background.

Avraham Burg: So we have a university, which is not far away from the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem that used to be overwhelming majority of Christians. Recently, I don't know what are the proportions, 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Muchhalf half.

Avraham Burg: But much much more mixed city.  And Within the university, which is still can be characterized as very Christian in its orientation, you encourage discourse and conversation between students and students?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Absolutely yes yes, and students and staff and faculty. And just to give you an example, when you see Muslims, either staff, faculty, or students, when they deal with us or when they speak with me and they call me Abunah Iyad and in English means father or priest and they know what does it mean that this man is consecrated is for the service of the people and for the church and they immediately give you trust in the way they speak, they talk and we deal with things. I think this is way of dialogue. We are exchanging values or we are delivering a message in peace, in justice, in information and also celebrating Christmas, our feasts, Easter. When for… a month ago we were celebrating the feast of Saint John de La Salle, the founder of the Lasallian brothers who are the owners of the university. And it's a day off and we call everyone to come to the feast, even they were invited to the mass. And then small reception and then recommendation, recognition day for all our staff and faculty. So even Muslims from from Hebron, from Jerusalem, from Bethlehem, when they come to the university, they know what that what Saint John de La Salle did and why they, he with others, founded the schools, the universities, what does it mean the Lasallian way of education and the charisma of. So I think this is a dialogue, not in very personal way And…

Avraham Burg: You put it in, sorry to interrupt you, father.

Fr. Iyad Twal: It's OK.

Avraham Burg: You put it on a very as if pragmatical level. Listen, since we're in a mixed city and we have students from all kinds and we are open for all communities and congregations. So we have to encourage the discourse and the conversation between people and people.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: This is practical,

Fr. Iyad Twal:  Yes.

Avraham Burg: I Take it I want to assume that there is a higher level than that.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, exactly

Avraham Burg:  For example, when the Second Vatican Council in 65 passed a resolution, passed the Nostra Aetate, it encouraged also to go out of the boundaries of the Church to encourage conversation with other religions. So Is it part of it?

Avraham Burg: The theological dimension?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yeah, yes.

Avraham Burg: So give it to us.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.  We have different activities we created for example in the university for the first time. I think it's the unique course and it's academic course, accredited course. We call it Introduction to Religions, where for the first time Christians and Muslims go in the same classroom.  And with two or three teachers each professor explains his faith or her faith.  In for example, Introduction to Christianity, there is a priest and I used to do that teaching Christianity for Muslims and the Christians in very friendship approach, just explaining how we believe, what we believe, what we do, not like how the others understands or finds the Christianity. And then after two months, another the second teacher, the Muslim professor comes in and explains Islam.

Avraham Burg: Muslim teaching 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes. And the feedback every semester we create, we do a evaluation from the students, they, all of them, Muslims and Christians, they love it. And the simple answer is that we didn't know how you live. We didn't know how you believe. Or sometimes, oh, we have many common things together. We do believe in many things. And oh, we didn't know that it's different this way or that way for both sides, by the way, because ignorance is very….

Avraham Burg: Ignorance is universal exactly.

Fr. Iyad Twal: And it's damaging more than building. So it is academic program, official and professional. Professional, I mean in the frame of the university in very respectful way with an outline, with books, with references, even with exams. And the interesting thing also that we have very smart Christian students get very high marks in the exams for Islam. So for example for the students we have this initiative. I personally go and do many activities, initiatives. For example, few months ago I was a member. In delegate in the Vatican delegation in dialogue with the state of Kazakhstan, where religion was part of the discussion and we or let me say I was presenting the experience of religious dialogue in Holy Land and our experience of Bethlehem University and in my background in teaching how we can come to build a concept of citizenship and believing in the same time. And we were talking about even the expression of positive laicity or or holy laicity, which means, yes, you can believe and you should believe and it's great to have a faith, but 

Avraham Burg: Laicity for our audiences is the French concept of secularism, the secularism of the public sphere at least.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, exactly. Yes. So yes, we as Bethlehem University. Personally and as an institution we are well involved in many initiatives either very official like the one with the Vatican, the courses, the conferences also we do the witness that we give through the work we serve the people with the students. So it is not so difficult I mean and any other.

Avraham Burg: I take your, earlier, respond of we are here for many, many years. We the Christians. 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes

Avraham Burg: You go into the class and you expose the students for Christianity, from a Christian point of view, from Islam to Islam, from a Muslim point of view. Isn't there a missing religion?

Fr. Iyad Twal: I didn't understand. Excuse me. What's your …

Avraham Burg: Do you expose your students to Judaism?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes. Oh, oh, you mean that way.

Avraham Burg: Yeah.

Fr. Iyad Twal: No, no, no  We have, we have a program for that. And then yes there is.,

Avraham Burg: The same students who are exposed to

Fr. Iyad Twal:  No, for very technical reason that we do not, we cannot build the same course for three religions. It.. the time will be very short. So we have another course, intro to…

Avraham Burg: No, I don't want to go into the politics of the university. I think it's.. I would like to be exposed to the teaching of other theologies. It's fascinating. But I want to have them all. So under the political situation today, how you do it?

Fr. Iyad Twal: For very technical reasons, we cannot, we don't do it. For example, because we are in Bethlehem area, so the closures, the checkpoints won't help always people to come and the let us say the people qualified to do that. The idea was, for example, to explain a Christianity from a Christian believer and Islam from a Muslim believer. So I want to explain Judaism from a Jewish believer. And with the political situation, it's not always to find that person, plus the question that we teach in Arabic, that course we teach in Arabic and English in many programs and courses, but that one specifically, it's in Arabic. So to find the right one to come in and explain it in Arabic also, it's not always easy, but we do not mind at all. We would love to go that path and that way. And it's university, so it which is very academic activity. it's nothing to do with politics. So that the yeah, it is there but not always…

Avraham Burg: I'd like to remain at the higher level. The political level is we know it, we read the papers, it's not, it's not our conversation. We try to go beyond this. The west invested a lot, at least since the end of the Second World War, into what is called the Judeo-Christian dialogue to improve the relationship after so many years that ended up with the atrocities of the Second World War. You describe here a very unique and pioneering attempt by the university effort, not attempt, effort by the university to promote a Christian-Muslim dialogue. Is there a way to merge all of these dialogues? Is it a way? …Is there a way to see a realm in which the three religions are talking differently than the political structures? How does it work?

Fr. Iyad Twal: We should come one day to that point. Now we don't have it. And we don't have it because everyone is is angry, everyone is afraid, everyone have tension. And we should come one day to that. Now the dialogue between the religions in the Holy Land is, is the current situation. At the moment we managed to fix that. I think we are going there. We are going. We should be in that path to reach that point that we all believe in this holiness or let's say the holiness of this land that we all share and live in. So somehow we need to come up to a time and place where the holiness that we believe in, we live it together. 

Avraham Burg: Despite the fact that our manifestation of the commandments and the responsibilities coming out of this faith are different,

Fr. Iyad Twal:  Not only different, it is a sin. It is… It is something against humanity. I mean, how can we, or let me say it, put it in this way, I see that religions are part of the problem more than being part of the solution.

Avraham Burg: In what sense?

Fr. Iyad Twal: It what sense that we are trying to kill each other using religion or bringing politics into religions. Or bringing religions into politics. I would love to give an example. For example, in history, when you try to conquer a land and use religion justifying it, this is not holiness, this is not spirituality, this is not religion. We.. let me speak about Christians as I am a Catholic priest.

Avraham Burg: You know something about it.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes. I don't want to go in the other's shoes. When we tried once and we did as as Christians,

Avraham Burg: The Crusades.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, exactly. Yeah. To take over this land. And we know all that religion was so far from the practices that they did and the divisions and even the locals were Christians and Muslims and Jews defending the invaders from outside. So, it was not that simple or right and wrong or white and black. So our love for this land or that land is connected to our faith made us do this. Then with time we discover that we cannot continue.

Avraham Burg: You have a you have one small privilege or advantage. Christianity, unlike Judaism and unlike Islam, has a built-in separation between church and state.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly this is year I wanted to come to 

Avraham Burg: When Matthew says give Caesar what's Caesars and gives God what's Gods, so you have a cornerstone. We do not have it. So maybe today, nowadays it's only the Christians who can introduce the religious non biased by politics approach Into the Jewish-Muslim conflict.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Absolutely right. This is what I wanted to come up as a conclusion to this idea and it is very challenging. It needs a lot of faith, spirituality in the same time and also a kind of open-minded or maturity even in politics where we define the lines between state and religion. We have different examples. Also they look at these states where they use for example you have in America and on the on the dollar itself you in “God we Trust”, 

Avraham Burg: In God we trust.

Fr. Iyad Twal: But I don't know which God the paper it's I mean the dollar God or and you have the laicity of France. They tried the total separation but after hundreds of experience they you can see that also they still suffer or they need different examples.

Avraham Burg: Still Sunday is the day off and Easter is the holiday

Fr. Iyad Twal:  And they still face. So it is very challenging thing and it does not need that we give them these fixed examples that we need to become like France or like the US or like England where the king is the head of the church. So, how we can bring in of or bring in the room, I mean, in or at the table an example of relation between religion and state and in the Holy Land it is very challenging. It is even challenging It challenge a problem because the price is blood, life of people. So we try our best  as institutions in the Holy Land, Christian institutions where I work in Bethlehem University, where I teach philosophy in the seminary, also to prepare the young people to become priests aware of all this, how we can live and share what we have.

Avraham Burg: I find in the content you produce and you create an interesting. I call it constructive tension between fear, hope, courage, and resilience.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: And then I find 2 interpretation of yours about what fear is all about. One is fear is forget everything and run.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg:  And the other is face everything and rise. 

Fr. Iyad Twal: OK?

Avraham Burg:  OK. Which means you can either see fear and say not for me.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes,

Avraham Burg:   I immigrate from the region, I run away or I give up to the powers of the time or you say, Oh no, I have my value system I'm a human being and regardless who's facing me, I'm there to offer an opposition.

Fr. Iyad Twal: This is what exactly what I keep telling our young people that regardless of being here, born here or living here, even any young man and woman in any other country, they need to build their lives based on values, on principles, and have things to fight for in their life. So even an Italian young man or French or an American, you need to stand up for your life and build your life and do not leave it to the circumstances, to the conditions because this is maturity and this is the role of education. So I do encourage our young people on all sides, in all religions, believe what you believe in. But that does not mean that if you build your identity, you exclude my identity or you fight me over or you kill me just simply because I am different. So I see it in this way from very human educational point of view and from even religious point of view. And it's so challenging because usually religions are a very delicate issue to deal with. So imagine if I bring it in to make it very positive and constructive. But this is what I believe in and this is the hope and this is the message. And let me put it in a different way, in a very spiritual way.

Avraham Burg: Please

Fr. Iyad Twal: This is what is resurrection…

Avraham Burg: Of Jesus Christ yea.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Of Jesus Christ, yes. This is amidst of all the pain and suffer, this is where Jerusalem stands. This is what Jerusalem stands for. Because the day we have peace in Jerusalem, I think it will be the international peace.

Avraham Burg: Really.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Because this is what the fundamental idea of my faith, as a Christian Catholic priest and as a young man living in this country, this is the power, the energy, the hope that I want to live That the conditions in my life are so complicated already, regardless of the faith I have.

Avraham Burg: So let me make it a little bit more complicated, ok?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Please do, yes

Avraham Burg:  You mentioned. I mean, we emphasize a lot the religious dimension of life and identity. but an identity for the one like you has three layers, the religious one. The national one be Jordanian, be it Palestinian, be it Lebanese, be it Israeli and the cultural one. We speak Arabic. Arabic is a cultural definer. As you said at the university, we teach in Arabic. We don't teach in Hebrew or French or whatever it is. How do you balance these three identities? OK, What comes when? When are you a Jordanian? When are you a Christian? When are you an Arab speaker? I mean, where are you, Father?

Fr. Iyad Twal: I'm all this together. It is not that simple. Or let me say, I would like to see it in different way. Everyone of us, has several faces or aspects. You are in the same time a father, a husband, a son, a brother. You cannot make them by priorities, which means I am always a father for my children and I would not deal with my parents because whatever reason.

Avraham Burg: God forbid.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yeah, I mean, yeah, these are the elements of my identity.  I live them all together, which is not As white and black or this in the morning I am a priest in the afternoon I'm off and in the evening I…

Avraham Burg: But let me…I'm a Jew for the sake of it ok?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes

Avraham Burg: And in my religion there is a lot of teaching about love. So in the morning, I teach love and I pray love and in the afternoon I go to war. So there is a collision between the two. It is not the harmony came down the Deus Ex Machina and Father Iyad lives all life long in harmony and Nirvana.

Fr. Iyad Twal: No, not at all. Not at all.

Avraham Burg: So I'm looking for the tensions there.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, it's much beyond just simple harmony and you're you're totally you're right. There are sometimes some tensions and… For example, the day I decided to become priest, it became a priority in my life. yes, I believe in my vocation and I serve as a Catholic priest. If the church needs me somewhere else, I was assigned to this service in this land, in this institution, in Bethlehem University. So yeah, my first priority is living my ministry in this, in this land I would. Yeah, of course I prefer serving in other places. This is the human nature. I would love to be…I studied in Rome, for example, for five years and I lived in Rome and served a parish in Rome while I was studying for my PhD. So I miss the days. But at the end of the day, maybe, you know, I prefer to stay in this land because I love it and I miss Jordan, of course. I mean in this context, it's it is not always a very peaceful harmony, but things are very clear for me in the way that I do my service and my mission and my ministry.

Avraham Burg: What do you miss in Jordan? What do you miss in Rome I understand. What do you miss in Jordan?

Fr. Iyad Twal: In Jordan. I came to this part of the Holy Land 89, 90, I mean 1990. So after all these years, I miss the and this is very personal. When I see my parents are old, I say, Oh my God, time went so quickly. How can I? How can I mean it's yeah, it is something. I miss seeing them getting old. How come I still have this beautiful image of my dad and my mother

Avraham Burg:  handsome lying, lying

Fr. Iyad Twal: Working and going. And now they are. They need every assistance possible. So yeah, I miss this time. And of course when I go there I have my family, my friends and you see the changes in everywhere. But I do believe and they do love this side of the rivers and in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, Haifa, knowing I feel belonging to them, you know, because also home, it's not always by where you were born is home where you are.

Avraham Burg: Somebody once told me home is the place in which you don't have to knock on the door in order to walk in.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Absolutely, yes. And then home can be persons, not but not a house, Only construction. So I feel at home here. And when I go to Jordan also, I feel at home there.

Avraham Burg: In Rome you took, you did PhD in political philosophy. The political philosophy of the church or the political philosophy of politics?, 

Fr. Iyad Twal: Of politics and then I took it to the side. 

Avraham Burg: I don't want to believe that there are some politics in church. No, no way.

Fr. Iyad Twal: No, no way. I mean, of course. Well, there is the political philosophy, there is the political thinking. And somehow there is, there are politics in everywhere because there is the human being in the way we deal with things. So in se, as we say in Latin, in se, politics are good, which means dynamics, motivations, ways of dealing with things, finding a way to get out for a good thing. I mean in this way I see the politics. I'm not a politician, but I mean, I use politics also dealing with people. It's way of how you treat them, how you respect them. I see it in this way, not in.

Avraham Burg: But let's stay there for a second. Faith is in many cases about the absolute. Faith in many cases is about solid answers. You're unequivocal in your belief. Philosophy and academic education is about doubts. It's about questions. It's about uncertainty. So how father Iyad within himself.

 Fr. Iyad Twal: Reconcile all this.

Avraham Burg: Build a bridge. Forget about reconciliation. How do you build a bridge between the questions and the answers between the doubt and the certainties?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Well, even philosophers  and studying philosophers. You need to come up at the end with the conclusion. You cannot keep your life built only on doubts all the time. Otherwise it won't be life. It won't be something you believe in, you accept in, and even a philosophy that you build your life in. So in this way I would answer that there is you are always called to question and questioning is very beautiful thing by the way. And it's very interesting and very alive because you have your mind as a human being, you use it. So but at the end of the day, you need to have a solution, you need to have an answer, you need to build your life on something. So if you go in history of philosophers, even we have now plenty tens of schools of philosophers and philosophies, you can define that philosophy that they say this or that, they say that. So you should come up at the end with conviction.

Avraham Burg: But before.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Before that, how I went?

Avraham Burg: No, yeah, but let me put it like that. Is there a question, any question or set of questions that Father Iyad would never ask? Because he, ie., you do not want really to give this answer that you have to give by the end of the question.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Well, if I got it well, the question, your question, I mean there are questions in life, they are always there, you continue dealing with them. But questions that I have the final answers, yes, I do. For example, that I do believe in God and for a while in my life I was questioning the existence of God. Questions that what does it mean peace or justice living in the Holy Land. This is something

Avraham Burg:  Which daily challenges this notion..

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly, So we try always to find a way for this because we do not have perfect answer for what does it mean justice for everyone. So there are, and it is something, as I said, very beautiful to continue having this question because it means you continue working on that. But other questions, for example, what does it mean the meaning of my life? I found the answer in the call for a priesthood and then I reply every day by living my ministry in this Holy Land, being a Catholic priest in the Later Patriarchate of Jerusalem. So this is an answer that I do believe in and accept it and live it. I mean these are the points and you know the experience of your life and it's like when you a young man when you search for love and then at the end of the day you say there's this partner I want, I mean this, this wife or this husband and you continue to answer through before this time that before and after. I mean yes. And it's by the way, it's always a question that my students keep asking me how you are priest and you are asking or explaining for us different philosophies. And I tell them this is the experience that I want you to go through that you ask, you doubt, and you should come one day to an answer, believe your answer, and live it. This is the challenge and this is the beautiful experience, path or,  you know, process that you do in your life.

Avraham Burg: We sit here in the middle, in the middle of the geography between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. We are really at the watershed between the two, next to Bethlehem, next to Jerusalem. OK, I'm now a Christian somewhere in North America. For me, the Holy Land is something far away, almost, I would say virtual, something so abstract, like the biblical story, like the mythology of my origins. How you, Father Iyad, how you as a believer explain to me the far away believer, the importance of this place? Please invite me. Invite me to come and visit you. Why should I come?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Because the Holy Land is part of your faith.

Avraham Burg: Faith. Yeah. But faith is abstract. It's high up. It's in the sky.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly. And so to make it very real for you, come and visit me. Come and visit. Come and see the 5th gospel, which means when you come and you see the place exactly where Jesus was born, Jerusalem, all the events of the Bible, the river, the Jordan River, the Galilee, everywhere. When you come and see it, faith becomes very tangible, very real and also the faith experience that our people live actually it is very unique and beautiful experience. It's part of even our values and mission as local church that we welcome our brothers and sisters and we invite them to become to come as pilgrims to visit the Holy Land and discover the reality of their faith through the their eyes, their their life for that week or two weeks. And then talking with the locals, with the indigenous, let us say, people see how they live, what cultures the experience and they are part of the dialogue by the way.

Avraham Burg: Would you say that the faith, the complete faith of the one who never visits the place and leaves it at the Nivo, at the level of abstract or the level of not practical is missing something?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes,

Avraham Burg:  If you come here, you are more complete?

Fr. Iyad Twal: Not more complete. It would be very educational. It would be very helpful. I am saying this because I know tens of cases of people, believers before their visit to the Holy Land and after visiting the Holy Land, how they understood their faith in better way and also how they became more or practicing in different way. And also the relationship with the other religions also it was very educational and helpful. So yes, it would help a lot for them to come and to see and to live the experience of the Holy Land and to see that at the sites. And if you want, I would put it in very theological expression.

Avraham Burg: Please

Fr. Iyad Twal:  The Christians, we do believe in what we call the history of salvation, which means. The Old Testament, the New Testament, the whole timeline of salvation from creation until now. So I would add this expression that not only the history of salvation, there is the geography of salvation and the human being is made from time and space and location from geography. We are connected to the land even from very simple natural instinct in any human being is they are connect. Even animals defend their corners and

Avraham Burg:  Territories.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Territories, 

Avraham Burg: Yeah.

Fr. Iyad Twal: So we have the history of salvation and we have the geography of salvation. Bring them together, you live very fruitful and useful and rich experience.

Avraham Burg: So if I try to summarize your teaching to me, forget about teaching your students that enjoy your presence and suffer it

Fr. Iyad Twal: Both. They suffer it with the exams.

Avraham Burg:  Exactly. I will say it is: Fear should prevail. No. Summarize it. Love should prevail Fear.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: Hope should be stronger than despair.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly.

Avraham Burg: Knowledge is better than ignorance.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes.

Avraham Burg: Questions should be asked, but answers to be given. And history without geography is a little bit of missing the an important dimension.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, yes, yes, this is it.

Avraham Burg: So what's the difference between you and me?

Fr. Iyad Twal: You had your own your own experiences, different conditions, the age, the experience ,the genetics, your values, your beliefs. If you believe in all these, yes, of course we are one. And this is also what we want. We want to bring unity in what we believe and live in this land and unity with differences in background and values. But also there are many things in common to bring to…

Avraham Burg:  So according to Abuna Iyad, Jews and Muslims and Christians with each and every…

Fr. Iyad Twal: We can have many things together and share and live in this land. Yes

Avraham Burg: And the what's in common can win the what's how should I put it? So what do we have in common is stronger than what divides us.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Exactly! And when people tell me, but this is a crazy idea.  They said, really, do you think this is a crazy idea? But fighting each other…

Avraham Burg:  War is reasonable. So within your religion and within my faith, within every and each faith, we have a built-in tension between love of God and fear of God. So we should, once we act out of love within our faith, we can extend this love to other faith as well.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes! And also to be aware, well aware, that it is not easy and we cannot forget also the element of justice. There is a lot of suffer and sufferings in this land. So the love it is not only…

Avraham Burg:  Since day one.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, yes

Avraham Burg: Via Dolorosa is not just a street in Jerusalem, it's modus vivendi here.

Fr. Iyad Twal: So also it is not just to to say it in very beautiful way and forget that we need to do a lot to build and to come to this. And we do not have a very clear ideas yet, but I think when we come to discuss deeply without the political interests, without the personal interests, without the conflicts that we the divisions between each part, each side, and even the personal divisions, we can come all and see that we need, as Jerusalem and the Holy Land, is unique, we should come up with a unique solution. Not just repeating any other example of any other country. I would go to the end of by saying, and it sounds maybe very strange, that if really religions are making it that hard to bring a solution, so let us avoid religions. But if and we can, and I do believe we can make religions together in this land, so let us build another example of another country, of another state, a unique example, not does not exist in like other countries.

Avraham Burg: I have a feeling that I would like to continue talking with you as long as possible because t his room and this hour was a room of hope and an hour of hope. And it's much and it's a very compelling, powerful alternative to the reality, which is immediately outside of the door of our room.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, absolutely agree.

Avraham Burg: And I do believe that as many students as you will educate and as many visitors will answer your invitation to come and as many people will listen to us. And say, you know what? The news sounds horrible. The reality is terrifying. But from the mouth of these two individuals, maybe we can take some new spring of life and new drink, some different liquid in order to survive. And it's for me, it's a promise. It's beautiful.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And the moment or the when the days are really heavy and dark there or when we can see the stars or let's say the darkness of the nights, the clearer they are, the better you see the stars. I do not have this enthusiasm always every day. Sometimes I am tired and I..

Avraham Burg:  Sometimes it's heavy to wake up

Fr. Iyad Twal: ..  And afraid and I'm worried. But at the end of the day, this is the hope, this is the faith. And Jerusalem has the empty tomb of the Holy Sepulchre, which is the power and the energy of Christ's resurrection in our lives.

Avraham Burg: Peace on you, Abuna,

Fr. Iyad Twal:  And to you,

Avraham Burg:  My father,

Fr. Iyad Twal:  And to you. Thank you.

Avraham Burg: Thank you very much.

Fr. Iyad Twal: Thank you very much for your time and for your initiative.